occupy wall-street/canada

[Andoriel]

This is going to start in Canada and some other countries as well, what are your thoughts on it?
I think it started out as white man movement who are newly graduated from university with petty bourgeoisie mentality but couldn't get any jobs due to economic conditions. Basicly these people hated the fact they been reduced to conditions of common workers. Latter on with union involvement and other more leftist extreme(any one mentioning democrats dies) groups it evolved into something else. And of course lately anti-jew(which western media now deliberately shows alot) organizations started to demonstrate in wall street as well.
With right direction and leadership could it turn into something even bigger then it is today?

[Glarundis]

i'm sorry, i didn't understand the point of that group.
i sort of understood why it got created, but what do they want?

[Andoriel]

You can find that info here and more stuff about it:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed- ... st-moveme/

My input is they dont have exact one specific demand, and they lack the focus and direction atm. But in the nut shell they want more social rights for the people. Since people from all classes(bourgeoisie excluded) are fed up with the system, they get support regardless.

[Mike]

Numbers 1, 2, 10 and 11 on that list look pretty good.

[Glarundis]

based on that list, why don't they just say something like
demand 1: end all the injustices and let's create a just world.


it would save the trouble of reading it all.

really, things like 2 and 11 will NEVER happen while global society thinks the way it does, and global economy is based on what it is.

demanding 11 is pretty much asking for all economists and world leaders to laugh at you and cry out loud "that's utopy!"


if that's really what the movement wants, they better just go straight to the point and attack the economical system, not the economical crysis.

forgiving all debts will only solve the problem for a few years until it's like this again.
the problem lies in the system.it will, in itself, create problems.

it's like that old story. if you have a sinking boat, you gotta fix the hole first instead of just draining the water out.
draining the water out (forgiving all debts) will not fix the problem (atleast not permanently) because water will still get in the boat.
it's the hole in the boat (the economical system) that must be fixed.

with all that said, i stand up for what they stand up. but i understand that, for all that to happen, you have to change the system. you can't change flaws in a system when the system itself is the flaw

[Mike]

Most nations have a healthcare system run by the government, it's mainly the US lagging behind on point 2. Producing medicine is still mostly a private enterprise though, maybe that should be looked into.

Number 11 may not be a long term solution, but you can't predict what would happen either. I don't think the power balance between industrialized and developing countries would swing back into its current status. The debt situation gives predatory capitalism many advantages at this point.

[Glarundis]

i'm not saying countries don't have an healthcare system run by the government.they do.
but they also have private companies.
their demand is to ban all the private companies, is it not?

also, i understand your point in 11, but it wouldn't work, even if it would somewhat help the poor countries for a while

[Andoriel]

if that's really what the movement wants, they better just go straight to the point and attack the economical system, not the economical crysis.

Bingo,
but these people are first trying to solve the problems with the tools system has given them. Keep in mind this is happening in america and despite living in a broken system there is ridicules amount of nationalism(FREEDOOOM DEMOCRACCCYYYY APPLEE PIEEE!!!) going on atm.
Allthough being richest country they had poverty for quiet long time. But the middle class was wealthy soo it kinda kept population stable. Now that middle class is starting to melt into worker class conditions they are starting to raise up(humm someone in past said this would happen, starts with M ends with X).
These people havnt been living in the condition you lived in Portugal or i lived in turkey. When they realize they cant solve shit with the given tools they will search for alternatives...like ohh I dunno...revolution maybe
Regardless I still think its rather a big step forward for Americans as well as Canadians.

[Tyrion]

Won't be a revolution in America. There will be protests, riots etc. but majority of America is too uneducated to know what they want. Most conservatives want the government to change things but then turn around say government is to big, well duh. . . . It's an age old argument. I think that these protests across the globe are indicative of a shift in global dominance and the way the power structure has been for the past couple decades. China is the new economic powerhouse and will be a key player in the world economy. I find it impossible that China does not undergo some new type of democratic change in the next century though, primarily because of a budding middle class hungry for more capitalistic type freedoms the United States population takes for granted every day. Military I think United States stays on top as China does not have the innovative culture to come up with new ideas to spur on that type of growth likewise. It will be interesting but these protests are just a ripple in the pond. I've heard talk of an American Autumn similar to the Arab Spring; meh, unlikely. . The key difference between Americas and Middle-East is that they (Middle-East) have been under the thumb of totalitarian fundamentalism rule for centuries and it is ingrained in the fabric of most societies over there. Some have the tools for changing this others just want the change but no sustainable method for pushing ahead. The biggest issues in America (specifically) have been decade old topics like: legalization of pot, abortion, health-care, social security, national security etc. etc. Old topics that have no clear or defined outcome because the two main political parties are mired in a bog of inconclusive meandering debate. Will continue this way until some other nation passes United States and people begin to say, "screw you guys, it's time to do something, we're getting behind in the world, and if you cannot get with it, you're unpatriotic," because using the line of not being a patriot kills voter support. Long-winded response but as usual with these topics, its' never as matter-of-fact as we'd like it to be.

[Glarundis]

i understand you timujin

well, i think there's a possibility of a revolution, not only in the usa, but worldwide. if we are far from that, we can quickly become very close to that if things go on the way they are.
once your lifestyle quality drops to a certain level, things will undoubtedly start to happen. in portugal, it's clear that crimes have gone through the roof these past months.

also, this summer i read a book by peter schiff. interesting book, really, and i never ever read an economy book, but that one was good. if what he says is true (and the china part is definately true) then usa are in for some serious shit, and they'll be as poor as portugal or greece if they don't take the right measures (or they can just say "hey we have military power so stfu and let us be")


also tyrion, don't worry about china, revolution will come either through force or through government changing so many things it will be a revolution alright.
already the wages are rising very quickly, 15% every year. this will mean stuff will also get more expensive for us europeans and northern americans that buy our stuff from china.

we have two options. either we start using our hands and crafting stuff ourselves (industry, hello?) or we'll start exploiting other asian countries (which is bad and will end up with what is happening in china)

sorry if i went a bit offtopic