Kill

[Athan01]

Generally frost resistance charges are the most common ones. People rarely use them, so that's why everyone has piles of them. Otherwise I'm not a fan of frost strike mainly due to dragons. TF vs. TW vs. EB is pretty much in balance currently, so I wouldn't stick my nose there.

Kill is fine. Not a fan of the current version, but you guys need to test it more. There's feedback from 2 players. "This is shit" or "this is the shit" isn't really worth a dime.

The current version is a waste of reagents as transfusion does more damage (90% of the time - could do with looking into the damage/casting time of that also as it blows, its like 1 60p malleus with 6x the casting time and the same mana)
Keeping in mind when im testing things I have 113/113 always.

For the frost strike regarding killing dragons - if you have any idea how fast 2 fighters (i witnessed ivan and frost personally) kill dragons, even if this spell did 150 damage per strike the fighters prevail for speed.

Instead of kill (once again, against anything that instakills) id rather see
- transfusion fixed ( higher damage more related to skill, casting time revamped also)
-summonspirit lasting more than 2-3 minutes and not being hit by my own sides veritas
-frostring casting time is a joke and isn't useable in pvp due to the short time the shards stay on the ground

-kill changed to bone spear (malleus that uses a daemonbone and instead of pretargetting you target after cast, different graphic ofcourse)
-kill changed to just deal a variable damage (based on skill/random dice) with a chance to poison your enemy based on spiritspeak (for example poison levels 1-5 based on spiritspeak 102/104/106/108/110)
-kill changed to frost strike, based on spiritspeak and very similar to mages flamestrike

Ofcourse the reagents for kill would have to be changed accordingly but that goes without saying?
I'm just brainfarting here with various ideas that don't render the class useless in pvp as it currently has been made. Feedback would be nice

[Athan01]

Necromancers would have been a dying class in PvP aeons ago if people knew what they were doing. Magic reflect potions, magic reflect wands, elemental resist charges, even magic resistance slows them down drastically.

I've seen argument after argument around PvP and necromancers, particularly those topics about kill being "OP", and matters to me not because I do not PvP, at least in religious battlefields, with my necromancer. Still, one thing I'd like to point out is that every other character is never "OP", but is always talked about in the singular. Necromancers have been "OP" but always in the plural. 1 necromancer can't do jackshit to you alone if you're well prepared with any of those things mentioned above, so we speak about necromancers in groups of 3 or 4, claiming that kill is lethal, when you can pretty much die only to the 2nd (if insta'd) or 3rd necro. If you don't know how to dodge kill + fs combo, you really should work on your macros instead of whining in the forum.

Necromancers jump into the battlefield with the lowest HP. At average, 155-168 is all a necro can muster.
Necromancers jump into the battlefield with the lowest AR. Even a giant bone suit and a decent AR necro bless won't get you to 60AR.
Necromancers jump into the battlefield with the crappiest weapon. A well trained necro will have anywhere between 10/40 dex (depends on the preference) and even the best lich staff can't be compared to a decent maul/scepter/halberd/sword.

That said, they relied on staying behind and shooting from a distance. Who else can do that? Archers! Archers then would suposedly be "OP" in PvP. They shoot from afar, don't have to deal with magic reflection, run away fashionably with a full plate suit and a chain tunic, and while necromancers have to stop for 10 seconds to cast anything, let alone test reflection, come back, cast chant, hit back, archers stop half a second and *boom* they are shooting. Why hardly any archer in PvP? Because everybody knows that if you're training a melee character, priests, barbarians, knights, warriors and assassins are a better pick than archers.

So one of the worst picks in the fighter section outmatches the best PvP caster out there. And necros are "OP", so they don't need any other boost...

The only reason things like kill in this case (and in my other example solitude) are so OP is because people figure out how to use them very effectively.
Elya is the main reason for solitude being so damn OP as he knows how to use it in sync with tracking so you don't see his nametag or him, and he can cast from off the screen.
I've kinda mastered how to make use of kill & have managed to get sacrifice and many other things nerfed also. Ironically i've never died to a kill chant in anything other than a friendly duel so that either says alot about the majority of necromancers out there or maybe it isn't that OP afterall? Tho instakilling is still lame

I couldn't agree more with what you said about necros being generally the suckiest at everything you mentioned above, we have just received nerf after nerf after nerf to the point where once you take the one good thing away we have nothing.

[Glarundis]

i always thought casters were never a match for fighters, unless of course there is great tactics involved and great numbers in play.
but hey, priests/monks can have even less than 155 on the battlefield. same for monks and less than 60 AR. and not to sound like i'm repeating myself, monks dont have kill. imo magic users have a hard time, but necro is not the one with the most problems. it's just that, in general, vs fighters, they suck. the only exception is necros and their (old) kill

[Arden Darkfall]

The only reason things like kill in this case (and in my other example solitude) are so OP is because people figure out how to use them very effectively.
Elya is the main reason for solitude being so damn OP as he knows how to use it in sync with tracking so you don't see his nametag or him, and he can cast from off the screen.
I've kinda mastered how to make use of kill & have managed to get sacrifice and many other things nerfed also.

No need to be shy. In my books, you nerfed transfusion twice, frost ring, kill, sacrifice and even wraith's form has been deemed a bug when used in a certain way (one that can still occur but we were told not to do it because it's a bug).

Whenever something is well used for a different purpose or way it's been intended, is nerfed. At least when it comes to necromancers. To some classes, Reppy still owns the shard since his "Law is supposed to be the best because it is Law" method still applies in several cases.

[Gorath Blackmind]

Pretty much what Arden said made me change my necro into a monk. I thought that I got no idea how to pvp with a necro, not to mention cant afford to keep him geared. As for the kill, I think Athan pretty much said it all, could be changed into anyone of the spells mentioned above.

[Athan01]

Pretty much what Arden said made me change my necro into a monk. I thought that I got no idea how to pvp with a necro, not to mention cant afford to keep him geared. As for the kill, I think Athan pretty much said it all, could be changed into anyone of the spells mentioned above.

This is why i've been coming up with realistic solutions as a change to kill - to try and suit the majority
On the battlefield I generally have 113ss 105 magery and 170-180 int. I don't come across problems that most non heighten necromancers will face - and this seems to be what these changes are being based on...
I seem to have gotten things nerfed pretty badly to the extent that most people generally can't pull of playing a necromancer at all as they suck too much (which imo they do majorly suck atm lol)
Any necromancers ive either fought or have been fighting with haven't managed to do didilly squat

[Athan01]

ever since wille put this in shard announcements: search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&auth ... &start=230

Necromancer chant revision All spiritspeak checks in chants have been checked and corrected to spell difficulty if they were incorrect. All balancing in chants that were magery+ss/2 are now magery/2+ss. I.e. spiritspeak has a larger effect to chants than magery All chants that were completely mager...

Necromancers chants have generally been much worse off and much more variable and random than they were before that change, ask simmo as I specifically remember him whining to me about a certain chant

After talking it over with some people with some previous scripting experience I got this as a conclusion:

The current calulcation seems wrong to me.

[Palma]

I tested the new kill against Deven, Demian and Zarek. It's freaking OP!

Deven and Demian If I basically hit them for 50hp which is a staff hit, then kill, they either die or remain at like 5hp at which point hellfire would finish.

Zarek needs a bit more, needs to loose 70ish strength to either die or reach the near death point.

We're talking about certain kill as soon as any crappy weapon that can do 50-70 damage hits anyone.

This is OP and in my opinion.

I find it hard to decide whether I'd prefer this one or the last one. Last one was very unpredictable, this one at least is more predictable and I guess it gives somewhat of a better chance than the previously that gave none.

However, this whole certain kill after getting hit by any maul/scepter can't help but make me post against this change xD Well, not against as I don't think the old was best, but as a pointer that this change was not enough of a nerf that kill diserves.

Cheers!

[Iktomi]

It certainly requires different tactics than before. What you've found doesn't surprise me Palma, but is it actually useful in PvP situations?

[Palma]

Usefull? It's deadly lol. Basically get someone to hit the enemy once and it's a kill without any randomness anymore. It's certain xD