Finland out-progressives Sweden (NSFW)

[Charha]

Homosexuality did exist in history, but to a lesser degree.

Er, no. There is no evidence of there ever being any less or more gay people in the world.

Whether homosexuality was more tolerated or less tolerated is whole another thing. For example, in medieval Florence people tolerated it to the extent that citizens actually teamed up to oppose the views of the church during times of persecution. And opposing the church at that time was no small deal.

I'm not an expert on eastern history, but when it comes to Europe, there is also plenty of historical evidence of people feeling oppressed because they were forced to marry some woman or man despite the fact that they loved someone of their own sex. There is also evidence of people more or less openly living with a same sex partner and getting away with it unscratched.

[Mike]

If you believe people are born that way it does become easy to defend/promote homosexuality probably. But honestly speaking from Canadian(probably not that different from eu) context its probably more of a choice for large amount of people. Like i said previously for the past 20 years homosexuality has been promoted as something progressive and good, and I have seen enough people with identity problems(mental instability) picking this road to make themselves "special".

I know there's been "studies" by "doctors" with fancy "degrees" that demonstrate how culture, independent of genetics, influence sexuality. But we all understand that those "doctors" are hateful bigots. They should seriously check their privilege. They probably have never even exposed themselves to some progressive lovemaking.

[Charha]

I think straight people who tell gay people that they're making life hard for themselves merely because they "chose to be gay" are dickheads. Or maybe these people just "chose to be dickheads", who knows. There's not enough study on that matter.

As for the stamps - according to the latest news, they're being printed in advance because the demand for them was so great abroad. They must have quite a bit of curiosity value also outside the LGBT spectrum. I'm sure a number of people just go "fufufufu I just put a homo stamp in ur letter huhuh". If that encourages people to send more letters and post cards, it's all good.

[Mike]

I think straight people who tell gay people that they're making life hard for themselves merely because they "chose to be gay" are dickheads. Or maybe these people just "chose to be dickheads", who knows. There's not enough study on that matter.

I totally agree, and I would add that straight people should check their privilege. We "heteros", we "cis scum" are not entitled to have an opinion or exercise political power. This is what I have learnt, and I'm hopeful my bros in Finland will too.

[Charha]

totally agree, and I would add that straight people should check their privilege. We "heteros", we "cis scum" are not entitled to have an opinion or exercise political power. This is what I have learnt, and I'm hopeful my bros in Finland will too.

Bah. The world will always be run by majorities, so it's honestly pretty dumb for the LGBT community to passive-aggressively demand that straight people start using obscure words like "cisgender" to describe their everyday routines and identities. There's no need for such exhausting political correctness and there's no need for martyrdom. People just need to get along.

(For the record, I myself swing every which way I want and I've never been harassed. It might be because I live in a fairly big city, so there's space and room for variation. I've got nothing to complain.)

[Andoriel]

Humm this has taken a very nasty turn, to continue i kinda have to attack indirecly to charlas ideology and her past drawings...i do not want to do that, i am a visitor here Anyway arden good reply, but from what i have seen in "left" political space, the first kind of hedonistic people tend to outnumber the second. Sadly.

[Charha]

Nah, I draw all kindsa stuff and I'm okay roleplaying characters that don't share my ideologies.

I might not be okay with people who tell me what to do, but I'm okay hanging around and discussing with people who have different opinions from me. Eh, occasionally I might think they're being dickheads, but the feeling usually subsides as long as the communication is sincere and eventually reaches the personal values or motives behind the superficial argumentation. I guess at that point an understanding has been reached even though the actual opinions still differ. And that's good enough.

[Glarundis]

so, a talk about stamps has lead into this?

ok...

i'm quite sure that gay ppl don't "choose to be that way" but i'm also quite sure that they're not born that way.
just like heterossexuals are not born heterossexuals.

it's our development, combined with genetics/hormones/culture/social surroundings/behaviour/etc etc that will eventually make us be like this or like that.

so, we don't directly choose to be this or that way, but indirectly we choose a tiny tiny bit.

also, there are studies that even heterossexuals have once been homossexuals and bissexuals somewhere in their childhood. the "normal" course would be to develop into heterossexuality, but for some reason some ppl don't do this (i have no idea why).

however, some other studies show that the "normal" course would lead to bissexuality.

one thing is certain, while it certainly is wrong to be homophobic, i think homossexuals should be humble enough to understand that, atleast in a biological sense, their sexual orientation is a bit weird, i mean...the species can't reproduce like that


@ arden

i'm unaware if it mostly takes places in the womb, i'm betting it doesn't but that's because i prefer to think that society/behaviour/culture/whatever matters more than genetics in these issues (ppl are far too inclined to think that genetics control everything. it doesn't. bacteria in your body have more influence than genetics).

i do agree with the last part of what you said though. many (i think most) homossexuals are like us just the way you said. i think what pisses off the "homophobics" the most is the need to show off so much with things like "gay pride" and stuff like that. i may understand the fact that they've felt that they had to live in secret for so many years, but dammit, i don't go around shouting "straight pride!" either..

[Arden Darkfall]

Humm this has taken a very nasty turn, to continue i kinda have to attack indirecly to charlas ideology and her past drawings...i do not want to do that, i am a visitor here Anyway arden good reply, but from what i have seen in "left" political space, the first kind of hedonistic people tend to outnumber the second. Sadly.

I would say that the kind that shows off the most ends up, redundantly, being the most visible. I have quite a few gay friends that disagree with that kind of exposure, opposing gay parades, referendums and public demands. They just want to live their own lives and keep their private life as it should be: private.

I see where you're coming from though. Unfortunately, ideologies evolve very slowly, and there are higher powers that have all the interest in keeping them the way they are. I could turn this topic into an irreligious one, but I'll refrain from going there.
I would just like to point out that each and every person should worry about exposing their minds to a great deal of information, experiences and social relationships and kick out social conventions.
I am concerned about corruption and countries being governed by corporations. I am concerned about kids joining gangs, killing or being killed before they're old enough to vote. I am concerned about drug dealers pressuring kids to try addicting & potentially fatal substances when they're not mature enough to make such a decision. I worry about ill tempered pressures, either individual, social, commercial or corporate, dictating rules and treating men as cattle. And more, but you get the point. Those are on my mind. 2 people in their own bedroom? It's not my place or, in my opinion, anyone else's to judge. We all have our limits and ideologies, but we should set our heads straight and allow people that are not out to hurt anyone else to live their lives the way they want to.

In short: let good willing folks be happy, whether they're white, black or blue.

[Charha]

i may understand the fact that they've felt that they had to live in secret for so many years, but dammit, i don't go around shouting "straight pride!" either..

We actually had a "straight pride" here in Finland. Actually it was more like a "no homo pride" and not that many people came.

I don't know how it's in the US or elsewhere in Europe, but at least here where I live the pride parade is a family thing. It's about being okay with your identity and having a sense of self worth whatever your preference is. Not so much about dildos and fireworks.