ugh...this day would come..
my piece of advice.get rid of piety while you still can. it is never going to work properly, it will never be fair. the only way for it to be fair is if every character gets to have piety. otherwise, the system can never ever ever ever ever be balanced. you will always have chars who hit their top, and other chars who have hit their top but can still go further in piety (therefore being stronger) or having less piety (therefore being weaker). and the answer ppl give to this is "oh but they should be stronger, yada yada they roleplayed yada yada"..so everyone else that is not a piety character doesn't have to roleplay?should he not roleplay just because he doesn't have piety?
get rid of that, or go the exact opposite and bring back higher piety with proper and tough requirements for all levels of piety..the whole 40 piety = balanced with other classes is the same as saying "we purposefuly have a system that will never be balanced"
i prefer getting rid of the piety, unless you do give piety to all characters
why is it so hard to understand?it's like..if you make 60p the standard to balance vs the other classes, then ppl whine it's too hard. if you make 30p the standard, then it's too easy. either way, it's a matter of a few classes vs others. atleast without piety we are all relying on one system for every character (skills) which can be atleast a bit more balanced
Before launch
Moderator: Game Masters
Re: Before launch
i'd have to say that, if piety is going to stay (it seems only me and ivan don't like it as much as everyone else) then pietydrops should be much more common. i could agree with the fact that this and that char is stronger because they are always active and providing lots of rp and events and the shard floating around. BUT if they stop doing that, so should their power stop, or atleast diminish. as it is, it's more of a question of "hitting" that treshold and then you have that piety guaranteed unless you fuck up real hard. the way i see it, if you have a benefit over everyone else because you are active and doing stuff, you can't have that benefit when you log in after being away for 1 month or are logging in only once a weekVulcan wrote: Some things are still up for discussion, but so far the whole staff agrees that piety caps are a must and that piety should be given away more carefully, much like earlier Pangaea and not how it's been in late years. Incentive? Do it well or lose it.
Re: Before launch
I have never been much of a religion or a pvp player, but I have had my share of it years ago. The knowledge regarding the whole system is probably really dated, and perhaps even wrong. Nevertheless I'll try to say something meaningful about it.
To me piety has always seemed like a system to categorize different statuses within the religion. Initiate/recruit has the least amount of piety, confirmed members have a larger amount and the high priest has the highest amount. The more piety you and your tome has, the more powerful your rites are. So it is a system to categorize players by their combat prowess. At the same time there is the skill system that already categorizes players to different levels. The more skills you have, the more powerful you are.
I have always found it odd, that only religion players can achieve this "higher" level of combat prowess by being active and RP well. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with rites as I see them as a similar system as druid spells, necro spells or bard songs. They are the thing that make those classes unique and stand out. But to me it doesn't make sense, that they have an additional "experience"-mechanism, while other classes can't progress in the same way. You cant unlock any additional perks by being the most notorious bad-ass robber or the most known fisherman in Pangaea. I don't mind that the High Priest is more powerful than the rest of the religion members, though it has always felt a bit out of place that the leader might not be "the wisest", but rather is the strongest fighter in that religion.
From my "naive" perspective the change the system would be something like this.
- Find the general balance spot for piety levels for religion classes when compared to other classes. Priests and monks have the strongest rites and largest selection of them, and other have somewhat smaller amount of rites or they are not as strong.
- The general balance spot for each religion class with rites, should not make them automatically more powerful than every non-religion class.
- Don't differentiate the religion classes with piety levels. Meaning that some religion member can have more piety than the other if they are of the same class. The only possible exception being the high priest or leader of that religion.
I understand that some of you feel really enthusiastic about this aspect of the game and it is the only thing of interest for you. But I think that it would be better and more interesting to the pvp if the outcome of it is determined by the skill of the player rather than too much of difference in the characters. Of course someone that is barely in the priest class won't win against a maxed priest. But if they both are fully trained and have the same equipment, they should be evenly matched. As the situation is currently with all non-religion characters.
If I would have a heighten necromancer with the same equipment and fight against Athan, I would loose because he can play the class better. Not because he has a stronger codex made by five scribes and extra 50 damage to each of his spells because he has written a couple of RP stories which the GM's really liked.
edit: I will gladly clear some points I'm trying to make if needed or if my level of English doesn't relay my suggestion clearly.
To me piety has always seemed like a system to categorize different statuses within the religion. Initiate/recruit has the least amount of piety, confirmed members have a larger amount and the high priest has the highest amount. The more piety you and your tome has, the more powerful your rites are. So it is a system to categorize players by their combat prowess. At the same time there is the skill system that already categorizes players to different levels. The more skills you have, the more powerful you are.
I have always found it odd, that only religion players can achieve this "higher" level of combat prowess by being active and RP well. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with rites as I see them as a similar system as druid spells, necro spells or bard songs. They are the thing that make those classes unique and stand out. But to me it doesn't make sense, that they have an additional "experience"-mechanism, while other classes can't progress in the same way. You cant unlock any additional perks by being the most notorious bad-ass robber or the most known fisherman in Pangaea. I don't mind that the High Priest is more powerful than the rest of the religion members, though it has always felt a bit out of place that the leader might not be "the wisest", but rather is the strongest fighter in that religion.
From my "naive" perspective the change the system would be something like this.
- Find the general balance spot for piety levels for religion classes when compared to other classes. Priests and monks have the strongest rites and largest selection of them, and other have somewhat smaller amount of rites or they are not as strong.
- The general balance spot for each religion class with rites, should not make them automatically more powerful than every non-religion class.
- Don't differentiate the religion classes with piety levels. Meaning that some religion member can have more piety than the other if they are of the same class. The only possible exception being the high priest or leader of that religion.
I understand that some of you feel really enthusiastic about this aspect of the game and it is the only thing of interest for you. But I think that it would be better and more interesting to the pvp if the outcome of it is determined by the skill of the player rather than too much of difference in the characters. Of course someone that is barely in the priest class won't win against a maxed priest. But if they both are fully trained and have the same equipment, they should be evenly matched. As the situation is currently with all non-religion characters.
If I would have a heighten necromancer with the same equipment and fight against Athan, I would loose because he can play the class better. Not because he has a stronger codex made by five scribes and extra 50 damage to each of his spells because he has written a couple of RP stories which the GM's really liked.
edit: I will gladly clear some points I'm trying to make if needed or if my level of English doesn't relay my suggestion clearly.
Re: Before launch
The thing is though, Thoran, that in today's pangaea piety classes aren't more powerful than non-piety classes, except for 60 piety Priests. There's no denying that, but I think that's the way it should be. And that will also depend on what rites the staff has chosen for the newly formed religions. It could be that even that statement isn't true, but we will see.
Everything you say would be correct if we were talking about the pangaea during Repsaks or Seraphs era, but today, no way. While it's true that piety classes have this additional-experience system, as you put it, it doesn't automatically mean they are more powerful than non-piety classes because of it. If we got rid of piety altogether it would mean a shitload of balancing between the classes to make it work. Piety is already taken into consideration in the balancing of classes. Right now, or atleast before the shard was closed, all non-piety fighter classes used in PvP (Barbarian, Warrior, Assassin and even Archer) were capable of beating 40 piety Priests, Monks and even Knights. In some cases even 50 and 60 piety Priests and Monks, depending on the religion.
Piety is a reward for time and activity in the religion, and for months piety classes will have to wait to get high enough piety to currently beat or evenly match non-peity classes who only have to train their character and they're ready to go. I don't see it as a bad thing that a lot of time and activity in a religion can reward Priests and Monks with 50 or 60 piety, even if that makes them slightly more powerful than non-piety classes. That's the way Pangaea has always been and that's what makes it interesting and worthwhile for a lot of people. Don't forget that the time piety classes invest in doing stuff for the religion, non-piety classes can use that time to do whatever else, like getting rich by hunting for all that time.
Everything you say would be correct if we were talking about the pangaea during Repsaks or Seraphs era, but today, no way. While it's true that piety classes have this additional-experience system, as you put it, it doesn't automatically mean they are more powerful than non-piety classes because of it. If we got rid of piety altogether it would mean a shitload of balancing between the classes to make it work. Piety is already taken into consideration in the balancing of classes. Right now, or atleast before the shard was closed, all non-piety fighter classes used in PvP (Barbarian, Warrior, Assassin and even Archer) were capable of beating 40 piety Priests, Monks and even Knights. In some cases even 50 and 60 piety Priests and Monks, depending on the religion.
Piety is a reward for time and activity in the religion, and for months piety classes will have to wait to get high enough piety to currently beat or evenly match non-peity classes who only have to train their character and they're ready to go. I don't see it as a bad thing that a lot of time and activity in a religion can reward Priests and Monks with 50 or 60 piety, even if that makes them slightly more powerful than non-piety classes. That's the way Pangaea has always been and that's what makes it interesting and worthwhile for a lot of people. Don't forget that the time piety classes invest in doing stuff for the religion, non-piety classes can use that time to do whatever else, like getting rich by hunting for all that time.
Re: Before launch
Personally a no-piety Pang wouldn't be Pang to me, all the points against Piety is great and all the ideas for normalizing power based off what other classes can perform but "it's pang bro"
Highten assa in good gear -> 60piety ancient priest in good gear. 60 piety monk barely maxed -> Highten assa in good gear. Classes still matter more then piety, perhaps we should do away with them too? :)
Highten assa in good gear -> 60piety ancient priest in good gear. 60 piety monk barely maxed -> Highten assa in good gear. Classes still matter more then piety, perhaps we should do away with them too? :)
Stop the cuckening on Pang #MakePangGreat
Re: Before launch
It is good to know that the situation today is better than years ago, but to me it still feels like the main concern for people is the balancing when it comes to PVP, religions, piety classes vs non-piety classes and so forth. And this has been the situation for as long as I remember.
I'm just wondering if we really need a system which can categorize players so harshly. To me piety is just a arbitrary number that affects the characters combat power. And it is good that different classes have different maximum amounts for it as it balances them out. I want to threw some questions to the air which I hope some of you can answer, or at least think about.
1)Is it required for piety to be something that is determined by activity, rp skills and how long you have been in the religion?
And as such be a totally unique mechanic when compared to other classes. Creating a difference in game enjoyability for some who, for example can't play as much as some, or aren't as talented in writing/roleplaying.
2) Is there a reason for a religion character ever having less than the optimal/ balanced amount of piety for that class?
3) If some sense of progress is wanted on piety or as it is "rite power", couldn't it be tied somehow on the skills of the character?
Meaning someone just in class doesn't have as much piety as someone who is fully trained, but would get it instantly as he trains more. This way it would be similar to other classes, and how they "power up" by training.
4) Is there a reason for having more piety than the optimal/balanced amount?
Even I say yes to this, and in my opinion the High Priest or the leader of the religion should stand out somehow, and this is one way to achieve it.
On the requirements of the level of roleplay, everyone should be on roughly the same level. Naturally some things might require more effort, such as to be the leader of a guild or a religion,as most of all you need the trust of other players to reach that position. If roleplaying is rewarded somehow, I'd say it should be something other than getting more powerful in combat or the same "power-up" should be possible for all classes, not just affecting religion characters. (i.e. a religion or a guild that roleplays as a group really well, gain a 5% increase to their damage output, maximum stats or something similar.)
I'm just wondering if we really need a system which can categorize players so harshly. To me piety is just a arbitrary number that affects the characters combat power. And it is good that different classes have different maximum amounts for it as it balances them out. I want to threw some questions to the air which I hope some of you can answer, or at least think about.
1)Is it required for piety to be something that is determined by activity, rp skills and how long you have been in the religion?
And as such be a totally unique mechanic when compared to other classes. Creating a difference in game enjoyability for some who, for example can't play as much as some, or aren't as talented in writing/roleplaying.
2) Is there a reason for a religion character ever having less than the optimal/ balanced amount of piety for that class?
3) If some sense of progress is wanted on piety or as it is "rite power", couldn't it be tied somehow on the skills of the character?
Meaning someone just in class doesn't have as much piety as someone who is fully trained, but would get it instantly as he trains more. This way it would be similar to other classes, and how they "power up" by training.
4) Is there a reason for having more piety than the optimal/balanced amount?
Even I say yes to this, and in my opinion the High Priest or the leader of the religion should stand out somehow, and this is one way to achieve it.
Assuming this is accurate, perhaps it would be good to set the piety to somewhere along those lines from the get go.Demian wrote:Right now, or atleast before the shard was closed, all non-piety fighter classes used in PvP (Barbarian, Warrior, Assassin and even Archer) were capable of beating 40 piety Priests, Monks and even Knights. In some cases even 50 and 60 piety Priests and Monks, depending on the religion.
I see no reason for this to be in the game. The starting piety could as well be on a level where the piety classes are evenly matched against non-piety classes. Of course some "rock-paper-scissors" match-ups will and should exist as it would be impossible to balance all classes to the exact same level of power.Demian wrote:Piety is a reward for time and activity in the religion, and for months piety classes will have to wait to get high enough piety to currently beat or evenly match non-peity classes who only have to train their character and they're ready to go.
Looked from any point of view this feels unfair and odd. As a non-piety player I don't expect to get more powerful by roleplaying. From a religion player viewpoint, I don't think he should be penalized to not ever reaching his potential if he isn't that talented in roleplaying, or doesn't have the time for it.Don't forget that the time piety classes invest in doing stuff for the religion, non-piety classes can use that time to do whatever else, like getting rich by hunting for all that time.
On the requirements of the level of roleplay, everyone should be on roughly the same level. Naturally some things might require more effort, such as to be the leader of a guild or a religion,as most of all you need the trust of other players to reach that position. If roleplaying is rewarded somehow, I'd say it should be something other than getting more powerful in combat or the same "power-up" should be possible for all classes, not just affecting religion characters. (i.e. a religion or a guild that roleplays as a group really well, gain a 5% increase to their damage output, maximum stats or something similar.)
I don't think my suggestion is a "no-piety Pang", rather a fine-tuned and balanced version of the current piety system.Quintoz wrote:Personally a no-piety Pang wouldn't be Pang to me, all the points against Piety is great and all the ideas for normalizing power based off what other classes can perform but "it's pang bro"
Re: Before launch
In other topic: any changes for magic users?
Re: Before launch
If it's not determined by activity, rp skills or time in religion, then what should it be determined by? I don't see it as exactly fair nor very RPish that a new member in a religion is instantly as favoured by their God as an old member is, who has been doing the God's will for a long time, even if they are equally trained and thus in your opinion deserving of the same power.Thoran wrote:1)Is it required for piety to be something that is determined by activity, rp skills and how long you have been in the religion?
See above.Thoran wrote:2) Is there a reason for a religion class ever having less than the optimal/ balanced amount of piety for that class?
Well that's pretty much how it is if you join the religion as a non-trained character. You get piety while you train. It's up to the staff and the religion leadership themselves to decide whether they grant piety to people who are weakly trained, inactive or such. But like I said above, it's not fair that you instantly gain the God's favour as you join the religion, even if you are fully trained.Thoran wrote:3) If some sense of progress is wanted on piety or as it is "rite power", couldn't it be tied somehow on the skills of the character? Meaning someone just in class doesn't have as much piety as someone who is fully trained, but would get it instantly as he trains more. This way it would be similar to other classes, and how they "power up" by training.
Exactly. And I think 50 piety is a very good incentive for all Priests and Monks of the religion, producing great RP and activity. Only a few players per religion ever achieve it and for a reason. Why take that incentive away? I'm not sure what I'd say is the optimal/balanced amount, and that will greatly depend on what rites the new religions will get.Thoran wrote:4) Is there a reason for having more piety than the optimal/balanced amount?
Even I say yes to this, and in my opinion the High Priest or the leader of the religion should stand out somehow, and this is one way to achieve it.
What feels even more unfair and odd is that everyone instantly gets the same amount of piety no matter their contribution to the religion/RP of the shard. Religions are a reward based system and they work as intended. Those who aren't talented in roleplaying or don't have the time for it will have to settle for 40 piety, which I don't consider a penalty because on the contrary, anything above that is actually a reward for exemplary behaviour and contribution to the activity and RP of the shard.Thoran wrote:Looked from any point of view this feels unfair and odd. As a non-piety player I don't expect to get more powerful by roleplaying. From a religion player viewpoint, I don't think he should be penalized to not ever reaching his potential if he isn't that talented in roleplaying, or doesn't have the time for it.
This isn't the case because classes are already balanced at the "end-game". To have the classes work the way you suggest, it would mean that non-piety classes would first have to be brought down to the level of piety classes with 0 piety to create an equal starting point.Thoran wrote:I'd say it should be something other than getting more powerful in combat or the same "power-up" should be possible for all classes, not just affecting religion characters.
This is one of those things that I'd categorize under the label of 'don't fix that which isn't broken'.
Re: Before launch
After reading all this all over again (just like the old days), Im actualy turning away from my earlier idea into Thorans idea of removal piety altogether and balancing the piety classes to same level. Rites could be perhaps be hidden into somewhere in the world and tomes be made for those classes by scribes and you'd have to find and collect each rite.
This would also mean removal of religions from the guild form, they'd be optional RP possibility for those classes that require interference of god. Siege system moved over to guilds and free reins for the people to fight their wars and conquer their towns. (Perhaps the guild that controls city gets to act as its mayor, deciding who the guards attack and who they wont etc.)
Much simpler and cleaner solution, this might actualy be best for pang and its fanatic religious folk.
This would also mean removal of religions from the guild form, they'd be optional RP possibility for those classes that require interference of god. Siege system moved over to guilds and free reins for the people to fight their wars and conquer their towns. (Perhaps the guild that controls city gets to act as its mayor, deciding who the guards attack and who they wont etc.)
Much simpler and cleaner solution, this might actualy be best for pang and its fanatic religious folk.
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Johnny Walac
- Posts: 4503
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:05 pm
- Location: Sweden
Re: Before launch
I'm gonna go ahead and say "KISS - Boris". Keep it simple stupid.
Two Religions (Law&Imp)
Identical Tomes
Remove or keep piety? For me either way is alright. If we keep the piety there will be instant fun, no veteran will have to wait another year to have a decent piety char.
Though id say it's equally fun to start from scratch. No-piety classes will have their own era until piety starts dropping in and then the religion chapter begins.
There will be massive RP focus due to the RP requirment for piety granting.
Two Religions (Law&Imp)
Identical Tomes
Remove or keep piety? For me either way is alright. If we keep the piety there will be instant fun, no veteran will have to wait another year to have a decent piety char.
Though id say it's equally fun to start from scratch. No-piety classes will have their own era until piety starts dropping in and then the religion chapter begins.
There will be massive RP focus due to the RP requirment for piety granting.
