New PvP rules

[Mike]

In reality a declaration of war only requires one part, while peace requires two. We've already gotten rid of the first part, let's not screw the perspective completely by chancing the second part as well.

[xHarlequinx]

It certainly shouldn't be easy to end a war unilaterally. It could be something like a minimum payment of 1,000,000 gold or something and then a period of non-aggression.

My concerns are:
1.) If peace always requires both sides to agree, then one side can always just decline and genocide the other side into deleting their characters.
2.) If guilds face potentially being looted into quitting by doing any sort of aggressive actions, then it has the potential to substantially reduce PvP activity on the shard. For example, guilds may just decide it's too risky and never go to assist Law vs. Telborea, or Imperials vs. Law or whatever. If there's the risk that your guild will get stuck in a permanent war, then it's just too risky.

[Zaradon]

I can see this happening. Except number 1#.

You cant just force a guild into war whenever _you_ want. Guild vs. Guild War needs to be selected from both guilds.
You cant just loot players if you are murder, without War vs. the guild _you_ want to war/loot.
If you want to loot players in the guild without War set on from both sides, you should stick to the .robber tag.

[Darian Darkmind]

Examples:
- Telborea attack Spirit Wardens for hunting on their land. No loot.
- Law fighting Telborea, Spirit Wardens assist Law. Everyone can loot everyone.
- Later, Telborea attack Spirit Wardens for assisting Law. No loot.
- Spirit Wardens attack Telborea for being a-holes. No loot.
- Ongoing aggression between Spirit Wardens and Telborea. GMs warn that a war is imminent.
- Spirit Wardens stop assisting Law in fighting against Telborea and stop attacking Telborea directly. War averted.

I just want to add here that even if Spirit Wardens stop the hostility, Telboreans can still attack and kill them. However, as long as Spirit Wardens don't retaliate, revenge or assist Law there will be no war and as such no looting even if Telboreans kill them. So Spirit Wardens have a choice to either "suck it up" and keep being attacked and possibly killed without ever losing any gear, or retaliate and launch the war.

That way guilds like Telborean can pick on people as much as they want, but as long as the people just "let it go", ignore them and doesn't retaliate they are safe from being looted.

[Glarundis]

yep that's it.
the question is, how much will telborea pick on people until they get fed up?

[Zaradon]

Examples:
- Telborea attack Spirit Wardens for hunting on their land. No loot.
- Law fighting Telborea, Spirit Wardens assist Law. Everyone can loot everyone.
- Later, Telborea attack Spirit Wardens for assisting Law. No loot.
- Spirit Wardens attack Telborea for being a-holes. No loot.
- Ongoing aggression between Spirit Wardens and Telborea. GMs warn that a war is imminent.
- Spirit Wardens stop assisting Law in fighting against Telborea and stop attacking Telborea directly. War averted.

I just want to add here that even if Spirit Wardens stop the hostility, Telboreans can still attack and kill them. However, as long as Spirit Wardens don't retaliate, revenge or assist Law there will be no war and as such no looting even if Telboreans kill them. So Spirit Wardens have a choice to either "suck it up" and keep being attacked and possibly killed without ever losing any gear, or retaliate and launch the war.

That way guilds like Telborean can pick on people as much as they want, but as long as the people just "let it go", ignore them and doesn't retaliate they are safe from being looted.

The Spirit Wardens have never aided any religion in PvP unless it's considered selfdefense and call for backup.
The Spirit Wardens can be attacked anytime by murders, but that doesn't mean we are letting ourselves just get beaten up. If you come to beat us, expect to be beaten for selfdefense.

Are you guys really much being beaten up IRL to understand the same in UO?
Man i pity you guys, you should wear yourselves in the streets and stop taking all the hating in UO...

[Johnny Walac]

Are you guys really much being beaten up IRL to understand the same in UO?
Man i pity you guys, you should wear yourselves in the streets and stop taking all the hating in UO...

Promised...staff...not..to...!
Argh!

[xHarlequinx]

I appreciate you not degenerating this into a flame war (in which cause I'll just ask Monad to Johnny this thread). The conversations did; however, bring up a new scenario that I've put as an example.

New example.
- Telborea and the Helping Hand are at peace. Telborea attacks Helping Hand for trespassing. Any kills that Telborea makes are no-loot. However, if Helping Hand calls Law (which is at war with Telborea), once Law arrives to the battle, this becomes a war battle (which allows looting of Helping Hand). However, this scenario would not count as an aggressive act for the purposes of forcing a war between Helping Hand and Telborea.

[Darian Darkmind]

The Spirit Wardens have never aided any religion in PvP unless it's considered selfdefense and call for backup.
The Spirit Wardens can be attacked anytime by murders, but that doesn't mean we are letting ourselves just get beaten up. If you come to beat us, expect to be beaten for selfdefense.

Are you guys really much being beaten up IRL to understand the same in UO?
Man i pity you guys, you should wear yourselves in the streets and stop taking all the hating in UO...

Gongrats on missing the point. Your guild Spirit Wardens was only used as an example. No need to go all defensive what you have, or haven't done so far.

Now, the problem exactly is in the rules that you CAN revenge against Telborea and loot them without triggering the war whereas Telborea cannot loot you without a war. That is the very issue here that needs to be repaired.

That is why if you aren't afraid of them and won't allow yourselves to be beaten up and instead retaliate and fight against them, you should be forced to declare war.

Also remember what I mean with this isn't that if Telborea attacks you that you are forced to run and give up. No, you can fight back and kill them if they attack you first. However, should the fight be over and you gather your group to hunt them down for revenge, or otherwise go help someone else to fight against them, then it is YOU committing the attack and therefore should be forced to accept the war. It's very simple.

That's how it SHOULD work. That is what this whole topic is about to make the rules more fair toward both, the blue and red players. Robbers are a whole different story and would still be treated like carbage.

[Zaradon]

Now, the problem exactly is in the rules that you CAN revenge against Telborea and loot them without triggering the war whereas Telborea cannot loot you without a war. That is the very issue here that needs to be repaired.

Pushing someone into a PvP scenario makes the first group the "war trigger" to another.
So why should the other one even have any problems with revenge?
If, for example the guild is intentionally going to raid the murders. Then it's more obvious of a trigger for war for the first trigger - That's a go in my eyes.

Murders are kept as murders, that's what the new and upcoming rules stand for.

Murder's life > Hard
Robbers life > Hardest

Guild member life > Hard
Religion member life > Hardest

I do see clear balance, why dont you?